Boris Nemtsov: "Khodorkovsky in jail is the symbol of Putin's power"

You need to go to the people with a plough and a book...

Right. That's why we're going to the elections to the Moscow City Duma. Of course, this is a special operation, and not elections. But this is a rare opportunity to appeal to the people with our slogans, to tell them about the 300 steps to freedom. And we went to the elections in Sochi. We understand this. This is a not-simple matter. Our political enemy is cynical.

The Communists - children by comparison with the Putinites, they weren't so avaricious and cynical. They were completely mad from the point of view of economic construction. But nobody has ever found any party gold. Or any mansions to speak of either. Private planes and yachts - even less so. But these fellows, they've got something to lose - billions, villas...

Those who consider that it's easier to pick on the Putinites than on the Communists don't understand a thing. They're more nimble and cunning, more adaptable to life. If even Bush saw a cross in Putin's soul....I, of course, understand that Bush - is a few cards short of a full deck.

...Schroeder seemed to see something in his soul too.

Schroeder saw money there. ...That is, a long, serious war lies ahead. This is an endurance race, not a sprint. We've got to outlive this: we need to have health, we need to be in good shape.

I read in your book about the secrets of longevity.

I'm healthy not because I engage in gerontology. I've got a political task - to outlive them.

Someone once said that in Russia, in order to attain anything, you've got to live a long time...How do you deal with the problem of questioners about how «Nemtsov has already been in power, and, this means, he can no longer be trusted and there's no point in voting for him»?

I am absolutely not ashamed of what I did in the 90s. I wasn't a bad governor, and even my enemies admit this. And I worked honestly in the government. It is another matter that oil then cost 8 dollars a barrel, and it was hard to save Russia. If oil would cost 8 dollars right now, they'd lift Putin up with a pitchfork and toss him into Butyrka [Moscow's largest investigative isolator prison--Trans.], he'd have to answer for his connection with Abramovich, for Beslan, Nord-Ost, Gazprom and for the Khodorkovsky affair. The whole deal, no holds barred...

We saved Russia back then. Yes, we weren't lucky then with the market situation. Plus the Soviet Union was bankrupt, we had to nurse it out of intensive care. And nobody got out of intensive care rosy-cheeked. I am not ashamed about that time. But it's not really about me. It's about «Solidarnost» - a movement in which there are people who have no connection whatsoever to the 90s. Kasparov, Milov, Yashin, Davidis, Ponomarev, Bukovsky, Kara-Murza... These are those people to whom I am gladly prepared to pass on the baton of the struggle for democracy. In «Solidarnost» there are adult people, in the sense of age and their fate, people who have been around, let's put it that way, and there are young people.

What's happening is like in a relay race: one passes the baton to another not instantly, but continues to rub alongside him for a period of time. They run concurrently in a corridor. Right now we find ourselves in this corridor. My mission in «Solidarnost» is to pass on my experience, to do everything so that «Solidarnost» would happen, and so that the young would gather political weight and be able to continue our rightful cause. My role - that's of a mentor, maybe that sounds a bit loud. I consider it's a very important role. I'm proud that I and my comrades have succeeded in creating such a movement. Despite both the skeptics and the powers.

And now a few words about the visit of USA president Obama to Moscow. He repeated his commitment to the values of democracy and said that that protecting human rights - is an absolute value, not depending on borders.

He - is the American president, moreover dark-skinned. He's got so many problems in his own country, as well as in the international arena, that it would be naïve to assume he's going to devote a lot of time to Russia. He's certainly not going to betray his principles, that freedom is better than non-freedom. And this isn't Medvedev's words in Krasnoyarsk. Only a democratic country could have elected him President. Therefore, for him, democracy - is not book history. This is - his personal fate. His personal success, and that's important. His attitude towards this is different from that of many others.

As concerns us. Nobody will give us deliverance, neither God nor tsar, and certainly not Obama. His meeting with us - this is a demonstration of the fact that he considers that Russia - this is not only Putin and Medevedev. He understands that there is the official power and then there are those who are not in agreement with it. He obviously empathizes with the democrats, because he's one himself. The maximum that can be counted on - a strengthening of people-to-people exchanges: between journalists, politicians, human rights advocates, environmentalists... Such a kind of contacts under Obama are going to intensify, because he himself is a product of non-governmental organizations. There's no need too count on him, meeting with Medvedev and Putin, raising the question of Khodorkovsky, Sutyagin, Danilov, if you were sitting [behind bars] - about you. From personal experience I have become convinced of this: I showed him the revolution initiated by him, Biden and McCain with respect to the Khodorkovsky case, and asked, had his opinion on this account changed? He did not answer this question.

His position - is such a, I would say, two-stream diplomacy: with Putin-Medvedev he resolves tactical tasks, important this very minute for America - the deployment of missile defense systems, arms reduction, Afghanistan, Ukraine, Georgia.., leaving the development of the country in parentheses, understanding that these people are incapable of perceiving obvious things in a rational manner. Simultaneously strengthening relations with the opposition. Politicians have such a technology: it is much more effective to meet with people who are neutrally inclined towards you than with your enemies. They yell shake their fists, you trot out your energy... This looks pretty on television. From the electoral point of view the effectiveness of such meetings - zero. It's very hard to persuade someone of the opposite of what he believes in. Obama understands that speaking with Putin about democracy is the same as me trying to convince Zyuganov to support the SPS. Pointless. In his speech in the economics school he said that not a single state can in the 21 century count on success if it is not democratic and is not found under the control of society..

The role of Obama in the history of the democratization of Russia is negligible. He came and he went, but we've remained. Imagine to yourself, I show up in the Far East and start criticizing Darkin. Darkin might even hear me out, inasmuch as he's a smart and crafty chap. Then I'll leave, while Darkin will continue to do his thing. Nothing will change going forward. Therefore the business of democratization and getting our country in order - this is our business, and not Obama's. ...I was surprised, to be honest, why he didn't start raising the question of Khodorkovsky seriously. He answered this question for «Novaya gazeta» rather respectably, but, by all appearances, he didn't even raise it before Putin and Medvedev.

By the way, is there any sense about the outcome of the Khodorkovsky case?

I've got not a sense, but an understanding...

...I don't even have an understanding any more.

...I've been there in court two times, Misha and I spoke with each other in the language of gestures. This is my understanding: Khodorkovsky in jail - this is the symbol of Putin's power. The symbol of Yeltsin's Russia was Yeltsin on the tank. Come on, you agree, don't you?

I'll agree that standing on a tank is cooler than holding someone in jail.

Well, naturally. And one shouldn't go confusing a divine gift with scrambled eggs. Yeltsin - this is a historical person. He's complex, with all his squiggles, as he used to say. But he's a real large-scale historical personality - serious, deep, I would say, tragic. And Putin - totally different story - spiteful and petty. As long as Putin remains in power, Khodorkovsky will remain in jail.

But Putin's going to remain in power another 15 years...

And so Khodorkovsky will remain sitting in jail. As lamentable as this may sound. This doesn't mean that one shouldn't fight. For example, when you were there, who knows where...You, of course, aren't Khodorkovsky, please excuse me, but for me it was perfectly obvious that the fight for you, this is like a fight for myself. I didn't even know you, but I could see that you're a decent person....Back then public opinion had significance, back then a ruckus was raised. They were forced to reckon with this. Now they've simply gotten completely insolent and audacious. Putin is pathologically afraid of Khodorkovsky, considers him an utterly powerful person - organized, serious, unbreakable. Exactly all those qualities he himself is short on, Khodorkovsky's got in abundance.

Thanks for the meeting!

Afterword. Of course it's hard to talk about everything at once in a single interview. But I hope that I will have a chance to meet again with Boris Nemtsov - perhaps the brightest opposition politician in today's Russia. May God grant him health and the same kind of vigor as now. And I'd also like to wish him ...caution. The recent incident with the surveillance device planted on his car says a lot.