The following is an English translation of an interview with Mikhail Khodorkovsky in the Italian magazine L'Espresso:
My life in a gulag
Talks with Mikhail Khodorkovsky by Gigi Riva
The political and economic interests behind his case. The difficult life in prison. His enemy Putin. The desire of redemption. Exclusive interview with Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the former Russian richest man.
He will struggle, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, "until death or release." Former oligarch and patron of Yukos, in jail for the last six years for tax evasion, fraud, money laundering, is having a second trial (see box). In this exclusive interview with 'L'espresso', made possible by his lawyers who addressed him our questions in prison, Khodorkovsky pinpoints the political and economic interest behind his troubles. He talks about Putin and Medvedev as well as about Berlusconi. He speaks about the prisons and the moments in which, even today, in 2009, they can become gulag. However, he still has hope. For himself. For his country.
Mr. Khodorkovsky, may you please describe a typical day in prison?
The main thing in prison is - self-discipline. Therefore, no matter
where the power throws me, whatever conditions I find myself in - get
up in the morning, do calisthenics, take a stroll through the cell,
work with papers. Everything else - depending on the situation. If the
conditions are human - good, if not - we can survive. I miss only
family: wife, children, parents.
What have so many years in a Siberian jail meant for a successful businessman as yourself?
Confinement encourages a more philosophical, unhurried, strategic conceptualisation of the world. At first you try to react to everything quickly, like on the outside. But the conditions do not allow this. There is time to think again and again - and yet again. Gradually, you get accustomed to it.
It seems that this new trial will not be fair, will you continue fighting or are you giving up?
Personal liberty for a person, in my opinion, is the most important thing. Therefore, without a doubt, I am going to continue the struggle until death or release.
Do you believe there are any differences between Vladimir Putin and the new President Dmitry Medvedev? I mean, do you think the new President is more open to democracy issues or is he only an expression of Putin?
Putin and Medvedev, without a doubt, are very different people. But political expediency is for now on the side of preserving the stability of the "tandem". However, such a thing as having two presidents does not exist in Russia.
Many high-ranking personalities in the world have taken a stance for you. Do you think that this will have an impact on the decisions of the government? To which extend the judiciary power is related to politics?
Support is very important. In Russia there are a lot of servile bureaucrats, ready to do anything at all in the hope of winning the approval of their bosses. Without public attention I am completely defenceless. In the last two weeks both the US Senate and the Bundestag in Germany have adopted special resolutions which characterizes our case as politically motivated selective justice and which call for independent and fair trial. The initiative of Pier Ferdinando Casini, President of the UDC Party of Italy, deserves a special attention.
There is no doubt that the entire YUKOS affair has been politically motivated from the start. The reason - a desire to undermine support for an independent opposition. However, today the situation has changed: now the commercial, corruptional interests of a series of middle-level officials who had personally lined their pockets in the course of the destruction of the company have come to the forefront. They fear that their dirty hands will be revealed.
Do you expect more from Italy? Or do you think that some initiatives may be undermined by the friendship between Berlusconi and Putin?
The friendship of Berlusconi and Putin influences the relations between our countries. However, without a basis in values and institutions, as European history teaches us, the situation can not be stable. I hope that Berlusconi understands this, while the friendly relations will allow him to discuss such sensitive topics with Putin, and to discuss them constructively.
Do you have any hope in a commitment from the new American President Barack Obama to intervene on the Kremlin about your detention?
There is no doubt that a decision with respect to my case is going to be adopted in Russia, but not in the Khamovnichesky Court (where the trial is taking place). There is likewise no doubt that our officials would very much like to portray their decision as the decision of an "independent court". I learn the name of Barack Obama in connection with the US Senate resolution which was adopted in regard to our case 2005 at his and others initiative, I hope that Obama, as a person who has directly and openly declared about the unacceptability of the situation in Guantanamo, will demonstrate to his counterparts that he has no illusions in the given question as well.
Do you think it will take long time until Russia will become a full democracy?
As I understand it, a democratic country - this is a country with well-formed institutions. Including institutions such as elections, courts, civil society, etc. Independent and fully functioning. I believe that if we do not collapse into yet another authoritarian stagnation, then in the next 8 years we may be able to build such institutions, and, in one or two years it will be clear what direction we are heading in.
Do you admit any mistakes in your life before detention? If yes, which? Do you think the economic power you reached was harmful for you? Why where you considered so "annoying"?
I have made quite a few mistakes. The main one - I consider - is the fact that I spent 10 years building Russian industry, when what needed to be built was democracy. The main annoyance to the power was caused by the existence of an independent centre of support for the opposition. This turned out to be completely unacceptable for them.
What kind of relations did you have with politics before the detention?
I have always supported the opposition. And during the time of Yeltsin too. He knew this. I have a deep internal conviction that an influential, independent opposition is indispensable for Russia. But it is extremely dangerous for a corrupt bureaucracy.
Regarding the allegations against you do you have any idea why they were made? Who else benefits from you detention other than Putin?
There is no doubt that besides the political interest in undermining the opposition on the threshold of the 2003 parliamentary elections, there were also the commercial interests of a series of persons. With time, these have moved to the forefront. Now it is already they who are personally dictating the power's line of behaviour in this case, contrary to the real needs of the country.
Will your eventual release have a negative impact on the image of the establishment? Why does this not happen and you are under new allegations that keep you in prison?
Quite considerable sums changed ownership with a complete lack of transparency in the course of the rout of the company (we are talking about approximately three milliards dollars). Now these "owners" are very worried and are determined to indemnify themselves, hiding behind the cover of the "political" interests of the country.
What kind of books do you read in jail? Do you watch television? What programs? Do you have any idea of how the world has changed in these years?
Today's Russian jail - this, of course, is not the GULAG, although many habits and traditions have remained. With books, newspapers, magazines they practically do not restrict me. I subscribe and read much. Of course, the categorical prohibition on the internet narrows the informational horizon. The state television channels give a very peculiar view of the world. But in general, given certain skills, which every intellectual living in the USSR has, one can work. Which I do. I even sometimes get published. True, then, it happens, they throw me into the penalty isolator. All in all, GULAG-light.
When you are released, will you fight for changing the situations in the Russian prisons? How do they look like? May you please describe your relations with the other prisoners?
I truly think that my obligation is to help to protect the rights of those who are subjected to criminal prosecution. In this regard, I support the steps to conduct the legal reform which have been declared at the highest level of the Russian leadership. Today in Russia, besides several hundred political prisoners, a huge quantity of people have found themselves in jails during the grabbing of their property by raiders making use of corrupt courts and law-enforcement organs.
Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people out of almost a million Russian prisoners have become victims of a dependent justice, the pursuit of rank, positions, material incentives by policemen, procurators, judges. Try to appreciate this: tens of thousands of destinies broken every year.
It is enough to say that relatively independent jury trials in Russia acquit every fourth person, while so-called "professional" judges acquit only one in three hundred. And yet it is they who have a monopoly on hearing 99% of cases, which are frequently determined by corruptional or pseudo-political interests.
Would you like to say anything to those that are following your case even from abroad?
First, I want to thank them for their support. Plain and simple, it helps both me and my colleagues to survive. Second, and most important, - Russia - is a part of Europe politico-geographically (80% of Russians live in Europe) and culturo-historically (merely recall the history of the House of the Romanovs). A single understanding of common European values, democratic institutions, including an independent judiciary, - is the best guarantee of trust in Europe. It is trust that gives birth to security, including energy security.
I am convinced that talk about the YUKOS affair - is not only a "humanitarian" topic. This is also a question of trusting Russian institutions of power.
How do you imagine your life out of jail? Do you have any projects in your mind that help you get over these moments?
Much has changed in the years that have gone by, my children have grown up, my parents have aged. I have many moral debts to repay. But how? For now, I don't know. Life will suggest something.
What have so many years in a Siberian jail meant for a successful businessman as yourself?
Confinement encourages a more philosophical, unhurried, strategic conceptualisation of the world. At first you try to react to everything quickly, like on the outside. But the conditions do not allow this. There is time to think again and again - and yet again. Gradually, you get accustomed to it.
It seems that this new trial will not be fair, will you continue fighting or are you giving up?
Personal liberty for a person, in my opinion, is the most important thing. Therefore, without a doubt, I am going to continue the struggle until death or release.
Do you believe there are any differences between Vladimir Putin and the new President Dmitry Medvedev? I mean, do you think the new President is more open to democracy issues or is he only an expression of Putin?
Putin and Medvedev, without a doubt, are very different people. But political expediency is for now on the side of preserving the stability of the "tandem". However, such a thing as having two presidents does not exist in Russia.
Many high-ranking personalities in the world have taken a stance for you. Do you think that this will have an impact on the decisions of the government? To which extend the judiciary power is related to politics?
Support is very important. In Russia there are a lot of servile bureaucrats, ready to do anything at all in the hope of winning the approval of their bosses. Without public attention I am completely defenceless. In the last two weeks both the US Senate and the Bundestag in Germany have adopted special resolutions which characterizes our case as politically motivated selective justice and which call for independent and fair trial. The initiative of Pier Ferdinando Casini, President of the UDC Party of Italy, deserves a special attention.
There is no doubt that the entire YUKOS affair has been politically motivated from the start. The reason - a desire to undermine support for an independent opposition. However, today the situation has changed: now the commercial, corruptional interests of a series of middle-level officials who had personally lined their pockets in the course of the destruction of the company have come to the forefront. They fear that their dirty hands will be revealed.
Do you expect more from Italy? Or do you think that some initiatives may be undermined by the friendship between Berlusconi and Putin?
The friendship of Berlusconi and Putin influences the relations between our countries. However, without a basis in values and institutions, as European history teaches us, the situation can not be stable. I hope that Berlusconi understands this, while the friendly relations will allow him to discuss such sensitive topics with Putin, and to discuss them constructively.
Do you have any hope in a commitment from the new American President Barack Obama to intervene on the Kremlin about your detention?
There is no doubt that a decision with respect to my case is going to be adopted in Russia, but not in the Khamovnichesky Court (where the trial is taking place). There is likewise no doubt that our officials would very much like to portray their decision as the decision of an "independent court". I learn the name of Barack Obama in connection with the US Senate resolution which was adopted in regard to our case 2005 at his and others initiative, I hope that Obama, as a person who has directly and openly declared about the unacceptability of the situation in Guantanamo, will demonstrate to his counterparts that he has no illusions in the given question as well.
Do you think it will take long time until Russia will become a full democracy?
As I understand it, a democratic country - this is a country with well-formed institutions. Including institutions such as elections, courts, civil society, etc. Independent and fully functioning. I believe that if we do not collapse into yet another authoritarian stagnation, then in the next 8 years we may be able to build such institutions, and, in one or two years it will be clear what direction we are heading in.
Do you admit any mistakes in your life before detention? If yes, which? Do you think the economic power you reached was harmful for you? Why where you considered so "annoying"?
I have made quite a few mistakes. The main one - I consider - is the fact that I spent 10 years building Russian industry, when what needed to be built was democracy. The main annoyance to the power was caused by the existence of an independent centre of support for the opposition. This turned out to be completely unacceptable for them.
What kind of relations did you have with politics before the detention?
I have always supported the opposition. And during the time of Yeltsin too. He knew this. I have a deep internal conviction that an influential, independent opposition is indispensable for Russia. But it is extremely dangerous for a corrupt bureaucracy.
Regarding the allegations against you do you have any idea why they were made? Who else benefits from you detention other than Putin?
There is no doubt that besides the political interest in undermining the opposition on the threshold of the 2003 parliamentary elections, there were also the commercial interests of a series of persons. With time, these have moved to the forefront. Now it is already they who are personally dictating the power's line of behaviour in this case, contrary to the real needs of the country.
Will your eventual release have a negative impact on the image of the establishment? Why does this not happen and you are under new allegations that keep you in prison?
Quite considerable sums changed ownership with a complete lack of transparency in the course of the rout of the company (we are talking about approximately three milliards dollars). Now these "owners" are very worried and are determined to indemnify themselves, hiding behind the cover of the "political" interests of the country.
What kind of books do you read in jail? Do you watch television? What programs? Do you have any idea of how the world has changed in these years?
Today's Russian jail - this, of course, is not the GULAG, although many habits and traditions have remained. With books, newspapers, magazines they practically do not restrict me. I subscribe and read much. Of course, the categorical prohibition on the internet narrows the informational horizon. The state television channels give a very peculiar view of the world. But in general, given certain skills, which every intellectual living in the USSR has, one can work. Which I do. I even sometimes get published. True, then, it happens, they throw me into the penalty isolator. All in all, GULAG-light.
When you are released, will you fight for changing the situations in the Russian prisons? How do they look like? May you please describe your relations with the other prisoners?
I truly think that my obligation is to help to protect the rights of those who are subjected to criminal prosecution. In this regard, I support the steps to conduct the legal reform which have been declared at the highest level of the Russian leadership. Today in Russia, besides several hundred political prisoners, a huge quantity of people have found themselves in jails during the grabbing of their property by raiders making use of corrupt courts and law-enforcement organs.
Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people out of almost a million Russian prisoners have become victims of a dependent justice, the pursuit of rank, positions, material incentives by policemen, procurators, judges. Try to appreciate this: tens of thousands of destinies broken every year.
It is enough to say that relatively independent jury trials in Russia acquit every fourth person, while so-called "professional" judges acquit only one in three hundred. And yet it is they who have a monopoly on hearing 99% of cases, which are frequently determined by corruptional or pseudo-political interests.
Would you like to say anything to those that are following your case even from abroad?
First, I want to thank them for their support. Plain and simple, it helps both me and my colleagues to survive. Second, and most important, - Russia - is a part of Europe politico-geographically (80% of Russians live in Europe) and culturo-historically (merely recall the history of the House of the Romanovs). A single understanding of common European values, democratic institutions, including an independent judiciary, - is the best guarantee of trust in Europe. It is trust that gives birth to security, including energy security.
I am convinced that talk about the YUKOS affair - is not only a "humanitarian" topic. This is also a question of trusting Russian institutions of power.
How do you imagine your life out of jail? Do you have any projects in your mind that help you get over these moments?
Much has changed in the years that have gone by, my children have grown up, my parents have aged. I have many moral debts to repay. But how? For now, I don't know. Life will suggest something.
I'm continually disappointed by Mr. K's frequent implications that he will give up his struggle if he is released. He should read more Gandhi or, if he doesn't want to be a national leader, he should stop pontificating about national issues as he frequently does. Can't have it both ways, Mr. K.